Go for the ball, not the man
Published on April 21, 2004 By O G San In Blogging
I've never blogged about blogging before but the behaviour of certain Joeusers over the past few weeks leaves me feeling like I have no choice but to respond. Such has been the venom directed at me by certain other people that I want to write a blog about debting etiquette on this website.

I'm not going to name names, but those about whom I'm about to write know who they are and they know what I think of them. I don't want to get into a slanging match, though that may be a forlorn hope, I just want to have my say and to highlight what could be general trends with reference to the particular.

It's been five months since I started blogging here and most of that time I've enjoyed it immensely. I stumbled on this site by accident one day. It was only after writing my first few blogs that I realised the true character of Joeuser. Most bloggers here are American and a good few of them are conservatives. Indeed, by European standards, some of them would be considered extremists.

This delighted me no end. There's nothing more tedious than preaching to the converted, though of course I appreciate those who leave supporting comments. It's much more interesting to engage with those who not only differ from you a little, but actually disagree with you on the fundamentals.

This is how intellect improves, through challenge and dissent. If you keep being told you're right all the time, the mind will go flabby. It's certainly how writing improves. I know that a sweeping statement or a clumsily-worded attack will be siezed upon by my ideological opponents at Joeuser to undermine my entire argument. Many's a time I've deleted something thinking "No, I can't defend that if it's challenged." I'm sure many of my fellow bloggers go through the same thought process.

So I enjoy debating with those who disagree with me. Some of the conservative bloggers on this site are excellent debaters. While they often vigorously disagree with me, they don't engage in name-calling to try to win an argument. Sometimes there is a meeting of minds, or an agreement on some common ground, often there is not. Either way, the exchanges are conducted in an adult and civil atmosphere.

However there are some right-wing Joeusers who don't want to debate, to challenge, to exchange points of view. Rather they seek merely to insult, to wisecrack, to give vent to their visceral hatred of all those who don't share their worldview. When I try yo counter this tendency, the people in question either issue further insults or else disappear. I've found that a blogger's propensity to insult is in inverse proportion to their willingness to debate.

Last weeek one such blogger described me as "pro-terrorist" on the grounds that I am pro-Palestinian. The remark was presented in a wise-ass manner but the intent was abundantly clear. It was to present the point of view that anyone who wasn't 100% behind Sharon must be 100% behind Hamas.

Nowhere in any of my blogs have I advocated the use of force by the Palestinians.Indeed I believe that Palestinian violence, especially suicide bombing, is profoundly counter-productive to their very legitimate cause. But, in this blogger's twisted mentality, such nuance doesn't exist. You're either with Israel (or rather right-wing Israelis) or you're with the suicide bombers.

Either that or else the blogger in question knew that I wasn't pro-terrorist but made the jibe anyway, knowing that focusing on Palestinian violence was the only argument they had left. As it transpires my unfortunate attacker ended up tying themselves in knots, at one stage claiming the ability of clairvoyance. I'm sure they won't admit it, but I think they regret ever issuing the insult.

Also last week I was, in effect, accused of plaigarism by a right-wing blogger. "Re-arranging bullets" from left-wing websites was the euphemism employed. Subsequently this person has denied that they meant to accuse me of plaigarism but they have refused to retract the initial allegation.

The blogger in question objected to my article "Bush's War, Bush's Fault" as a rip-off. They allege that another online article exists with the same or simiair title. They claim to be able to produce proof but unwilling to make the effort. But even if they were to produce such evidence, so what? With all the material online these days, it's entirely possible that two like-minded writers could produce two articles with identical titles entirely independently of each other. I happily admit that the title "Bush's War, Bush's Fault" was not my most inventive.

This blogger also claims that the content of that article was taken from someone else's work and re-arranged to give the appearance of originality. Again no proof has been offered to support this allegation. When challenged on this they responded in effect that there are many anti-Bush articles on the web and that I have obviously read some of them.

Again, so what? This is not proof of plaigarism. My accuser posted an article welcoming the assassination of Ahmed Yassin last month. By this rationale, if they had read anything supporting Israel's action before they posted the article then they would be a plaigarist. Of course this is a ridiculous attitude. Do they honestly expext those who write to abstain from reading?

As I've said, the person in question has produced no evidence, I repeat no evidence, that I have passed off someone else's work as my own. That's because there is no evidence. It is a baseless slur which they should withdraw immediately. Significantly the person in question, whose articles are rather light on text, has refused to engage with me in debate; either about Palestine or Iraq.

I've learnt from personal experience that getting personal only undermines your case. It may make you feel good to deride those who disagree with you but, in the end, you're only hurting yourself. I found this out the hard way a few months ago when I read an explicitly racist article on this site. Rather than tackle the blogger on their views, I chose to mock them for their sloppy use of the English language.

I regret doing this, not because I feel sorry for the person in question, I don't, but because I hurt my own case. By being cruel to them, I directed attention away from their bigotry and on to my pettiness. Put simply, I shot myself in the foot.

Since then I've tried to avoid personally abusing those with whom I disagree. I hope that at least one of the people who punched me below the belt last week will take a similair attitude in future.

Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Apr 21, 2004
Nice article.

I think that many people on all sides of the political spectrum resort to emotional replies when something rubs them the wrong way or upsets them. Emotional replies by their very nature tend to be personalised.

People need to respect other posters a bit more and disagree on the points, not on the person.

Paul.
on Apr 21, 2004
Absolutely, getting personal is not confined to the right. I do it myself. My examples are conservative because they are the people who disagree with me.
on Apr 21, 2004
O G San~wow! I am impressed by how well you blog! Very good points, and expressed in a clear sort of way. And you sound extremely fair to me! That is what I liked the most about this article.

So yeah, I agree with you about so much of what you have talked about here? There are a few rather mean spirited bloggers that seem to relish insulting and putting down other folks on JU. And I will confess that I actually have "gone for the bait" one or two times, and wished I hadn't in retrospect. I don't know why some people are so callous and cruel? One very gifted (and sweet) blogger on here was recently put down so intensely by an angry fellow blogger that I was truly amazed people like that are allowed to remain here? But I guess I try to look at it this way: If JU starts banning folks from commenting and blogging because they are too extreme or offensive~it takes away some of the feeling of freedom of speech that I truly admire about this site. Yeah, those rude (and sometimes cruel) comments are a pain the neck big time? But I am getting better at ignoring the more obnoxious ones (although I do slip every now and then). But I think your experience has been harsher than mine perhaps? Because you sound so very bright and challenging in your opinions (plus politics can sometimes bring out the beast in many folks!). My articles tend to be more personal and even humorous~some of my most successful blogs have been deliberately funny, etc. So most of the folks here have been very generous and kind to me. I really do like JU a lot.

I did do a very serious piece all about Anne Frank and Hitler recently? And apart from one or two slightly insulting remarks from some energetic Christian folks~everybody was so kind and supportive! But I think most people don't really know what to make of me here? . Because one minute I'm poking fun at very serious issues like abortion and gay rights (all tongue-in-cheek/that's how I approach it in my humorous blogs), and then before you know it~I'm taking a VERY serious approach to the holocaust and what not. So they probably find me rather a mystery, huh? . Or else they think I am just VERY different (yeah, that's what it is! Uh huh!). Anyway, I enjoyed your blog a lot, and I just wanna encourage you to keep on hanging in there (you sound like a smart and tough one to me). You write extremely well, and you don't sound like you got a mean bone in your entire body to me. So if it's any consolation at all~I will never insult you, or accuse you of stuff that obviously has no basis in fact. THANKS FOR WRITING THIS! VERY NICELY DONE. And I hope most folks are kinder to you soon, and will begin to see some of the many qualities I see in your style. Oh where oh where is John Lennon when we need him most. GOOD LUCK, AND HANG IN THERE!

~MadPoet

P.S. Please feel free to visit one of my blogs anytime you wish? I would welcome your visit and comments very much...
on Apr 21, 2004
Thanks a lot MadPoet, I'll go check out your site.

One thing though, I didn't write that article as a "whoa is me" thing. The unfair criticism and lies have to be countered because I want to defend myself and my beliefs. But it doesn't hurt. I have to respect someone before I can be hurt by their disapproval. I don't respect either of the two bloggers I mentioned.
on Apr 21, 2004
OG San:
Glad to see you are back...we were just commenting that we hadn't seen you around in a while. If you have a chance, check out Larry Kuperman's article on Rantisi's death-more so the comments section and let us know if you are interested in joining our experiment.

Link

on Apr 21, 2004
The first "insightful" I've given since... well, in a very long time. This was a great blog and a breath of fresh air from the recent tension around here. The only thing I would add is that although we agree on this, others will still go below the belt, and the best response to that is either completely ignoring to them or replying to their comment literally and intellectually to guide them in the direction you want the debate to go.

Excellent post.

~Dan

PS "Whoa is me?" That made me chuckle... did you mean "woe is me?"
on Apr 22, 2004
Thanks Dan.

Oops! Yeah I meant "woe", bit tired at that point.
on Apr 22, 2004
Not being able to edit your own comments is a real pain in he butt sometimes but I understand the necessity. Woe is my typing.
on Apr 23, 2004
A well-balanced and timely article. You write so well I'm (almost) silenced by it. Trying to be this objective and factual in the face of personal attacks and petty rhetoric must be distressing and obviously requires a lot of self-control!

This article adress several interesting points, the subtitle says it all, really... It's my hope that this could be a better place if everybody stuck to the issue at hand, instead of vague references to character.
on Apr 23, 2004
The need to belittle someone else to fullfill one's own self, is selfish and disheartening.

I have seen it a lot, too. It really is a shame.
I find myself not commenting on certain topics, especially if there are bloggers already ensued in slanderous comments. I have noticed, most comments that belittle are typically from the same bloggers.

Can't we all just get along??
on Apr 23, 2004
I’m not going to waste much time with this… Shown me citation of an instance where I accused you of “plagiarism” If you cannot show a actual line where I said OG san committed plagiarism then that makes you a flat out liar looking to drum up attention of other likeminded moon bats.
on Apr 23, 2004
then that makes you a flat out liar looking to drum up attention of other likeminded moon bats.


I'm sorry, I do recognize what you are trying to say, but this is where it gets funny...
on Apr 23, 2004
Another thing: When you fail to provide evidence that I ever accused you of plagiarism, I hope you then attempt to clear my name with the same zealotry in which you have now besmirched it!
on Apr 24, 2004
OK Anthony, do you stand by all these comments?:

"All this bilge and drivel you posted is just regurgitated rhetoric which can be found at a loony left site like DUh. All the same bullets organized and presented in a different way"

First of all what is "DUh"? Any reasonable person reading this comment would agree that you have questioned the originality of my writing and, by extension, my honesty. You are careful not to use the word "plaigarism" - perhaps because you know that you have no evidence but you want to besmirch my name anyway.

"Your not the first Bush war, Bush fault, Bush lied, diatribe creator. This is a direct result of visiting kook websites such as DUh"

How does one form opinions Anthony? By reading, by observing, by talking to others. Am I not allowed to read "kook" websites if I also want to post "kook" blogs? Of course I'm not the first person to blame Bush for the mess in Iraq, there are millions of people who think like me. I never claimed to be the only person who thought that way.

"I am certain that you drew a lot, and I mean a lot of inspiration for that article" "You may have even paraphrased a few things, but I am not about to go through every left wing kook article I have ever read to find citation."

Again, drawing inspiration from someone else's work is nothing illegal or immoral, it's very natural. As it happens I wrote the "Bush's War, Bush's Fault" article without being influenced by any particular piece of work. That blog merely reflects my attitude at the time. I've read things by other people which take a similair line but, again, that's not plaigarism and it's not dishonest.

"You may have even paraphrased a few things, but I am not about to go through every left wing kook article I have ever read to find citation."

The closest you come to accusing me of plaigarism. Again you avoid the "p" word but you speculate that I could have "paraphrased" someone else's work. That would make me a plaigarist. I have not paraphrased anyone else's work. You have only two options Anthony, provide evidence that I paraphrased someone else's work or else withdraw the comment.

"I never said plagiarism, you said plagiarism. If I said plagiarism, that would make me a liar, but what I actually said was that the concept, or thesis of your article came from a myriad of sources that I have seen somewhere before. I did not say it was a verbatim copy; therefore, I owe no apology."

And here's what I say:

"Also last week I was, in effect, accused of plaigarism by a right-wing blogger. "Re-arranging bullets" from left-wing websites was the euphemism employed. Subsequently this person has denied that they meant to accuse me of plaigarism but they have refused to retract the initial allegation."

One minor error, I should have said "All the same bullets organized and presented in a different way" rather than "re-arranging bullets", either way it's the same thing.

I say that you accuse me of plaigarism "in effect", I acknowledge that you didn't accuse me of it directly, so I'm not a liar.

Anthony, you questioned my honesty and my originality. Your words were written in a way which would give any reasonable person the impression that you think I'm a plaigarist. You were careful not to accuse me of it directly but your intent was clear.

You owe me an apology and a retraction.
on Apr 24, 2004
It was nice while it lasted, eh guys?

~Buddha
2 Pages1 2