Published on September 29, 2005 By O G San In International
The question “Can politics remain secular” is rather like asking “Does my bum look big in this?” Whatever the answer, the anxiety of the enquiry is evident.

The very asking of this question indicates an unease with the direction of politics; a feeling that a political system predicated on the equality of all, regardless of religion, may give way to a system which favours one set of beliefs over others. Allied to this is a sense that religion will one day supplant economics as the key political division; that gay marriage will one day be considered more important than health policy.

Secularism stands, not just for the separation of state and religion, but also for the relegation of spiritual matters into the private sphere of personal morality. Secularism tries to manage religious differences (which will always be with us) by keeping them out of public discourse. In so doing, the hope is that political divisions based on class and economics - which will be less likely to lead to violence - will take precedence. Any defence of secularism ultimately rests on this over-riding need to avoid sectarian bloodshed.

When one surveys political developments in the last few decades the unease inherent in the question above seems more than justified. All over the world one can see the drift away from secularism towards forms of religious fundamentalisms, Godisms if you will, which lead, inevitably in my view, to violence and division.

One can see this in Israel/Palestine with the growth on one side of a militant Jewish nationalism which explicitly calls for the expulsion of all Gentiles from the Promised Land and on the other side by the increase in support for groups such as Hamas which aim to establish an Islamic state on that same land. One can see this drift towards Godism in the Balkans too, with its fearful wars in the 1990s. For years Catholic, Orthodox and Serb fought each other viciously, respecting no taboo, butchering women and children and desecrating places of worship. One can see it too, in less gory fashion, in the US, with the growing strength of the Darwin-deniers, who would have superstition installed into the science classroom; or in India with the growth of the Hindu fundamentalist BJP.

Looking at all this, the question “Can politics remain secular?” seems over optimistic. Surely the question should be “Can politics become secular?” To assume a non-religious basis for political discourse is to adopt a dangerously Euro-centric view of the world. For it is only in the old continent that the idea of the state belonging to all of its citizens, regardless of belief, seems secure. Elsewhere this notion has either never been widely accepted (as in Israel/Palestine) or, as with the US, is in retreat.

The fundamentalist onslaught has not been felt strongly in Europe but this may not be the case for much longer. The fear is that Europe, where political divisions have traditionally been based on economics and class, may experience sectarian politics, a sort of “Ulsterisation” of the continent. The terrorist outrages in Madrid and London have raised the spectre of communal conflict in Europe, of a dangerous new politics based on the division between Muslim and infidel; where hatred, suspicion and ignorance turn neighbour against neighbour. Instead of economic circumstances, or even nationality, religion could become the great cleavage in Europe as it is elsewhere in the world. The warning signs, such as the murder of Theo van Gogh and the destruction of mosques in the Netherlands, are there for those who wish to take heed.

But the threat to secularism in Europe is peculiar. Elsewhere in the world, where two religions have come into conflict this has tended to lead to an increase in religious identification. Thus in Israel/Palestine in recent years we have seen the increase in electoral support for both the Orthodox Shas and the Islamic Hamas. But in Europe this is not the case. If for instance there was an al-Qaida bombing in Berlin, it is sadly possible that some Germans would react to this by attacking mosques. But it seems less plausible that Berliners would respond to an Islamist attack on their city by flocking to their near-abandoned churches. With so many Europeans having been spared any form of religious indoctrination, the continent is close to becoming post-Christian. Even if people did try to find solace in religion, many of them would struggle to follow the service.

There is no great Christian awakening in Europe today. Rather there is a growing division between the continent’s Islamic and non-Islamic populations which threatens to become the defining issue of our era. However, should this conflict become more intense, we may see an upsurge in Christianity in Europe. We will assuredly hear some people calling for a re-assertion of so-called “Christian” values and for the re-installation of religion into the public sphere.

What is needed now more than ever is the assertion of a strong, confident, secular politics against Godisms of any stripe. It is worth reiterating that any religious trespass into the public sphere - be it the playing of the Angelus on RTE, the Law of Succession for the British throne, or the state funding of “faith schools” - automatically undermines democracy and equality. Any state sponsorship of religion, no matter how benign it may seem, implicitly shows that one set of beliefs is favoured over another, or that “people of faith” are superior to those who chose not to believe. In any truly democratic society there can be only one class of citizen: first. With the sheer number of belief systems only secularism can square the circle of equality in a world of diversity.

Given all this, it would seem natural that the European left would be among secularism’s chief proponents. The whole point of being a progressive after all is to put economics before religion or race, to improve conditions in this life rather than dreaming of something better in the next. Yet when it comes to defending secularism, the left’s spinelessness is infuriating.

Where were the voices of support on the left during the controversy over religious attire in French schools? The majority of leftists, rather than lauding this separation of religion and state, chose instead to throw in their lot with the Godists. Rather than standing up for the French version of secularism, too many on the left wailed at the supposed intolerance of the measure, as if telling children what they could and could not wear at school was somehow abusing their human rights. Too often the policy in question was described as a “ban on head scarves”, as if the hijab was the only article in question. This is not to say that the French example should be followed elsewhere in Europe - the Gallic version of secularism is of an extreme bent - but rather to say that when secularism and Godism clash, the left should side with the secularists.

Why then is the left reluctant to defend secularism? Unfortunately the much-maligned political correctness is to blame here. PC, in so much as it puts sexist, racist, bigoted and homophobic language beyond the pale of acceptable discourse, is a noble idea. But where it goes awry is in the elevation of inoffensiveness to dogma, to assume that someone’s religion is exempt from reasoned criticism. To use an Irish example, it is wrong to refer to Protestants by hate-filled epithets such as “Hun” or “Jaffa”. But this does not mean that the theological tenets of Protestantism can not be critiqued by non-Protestants lest, heaven forbid, someone might be offended.

To engage in political debate, any political debate, is to open up the possibility of offending someone. When discussing taxation, or global warming, or aid to Africa, it is possible that someone will find your view objectionable, hurtful even. But why is it only with religion (and its slippery partner “culture”) that we are allowed to play the “that’s offensive to my people” card and put an end to the discussion? None of this is to argue that the point of politics, or indeed of secularism, is to offend. It is wrong to deliberately hurt someone else’s feelings. But anyone who engages in political debate must accept the possibility that they could end up causing offence. Those who are too meek to accept this should, frankly, retire from the fray. Secularism deserves better than to be damned with faint praise.

Politics will only remain secular if those of us who believe it should do are willing to defend that position. There’s a reason that creationism is encroaching into American high school science classrooms, and it has nothing to do with the deficiencies of Darwinism. It’s because the true believers of creationism want to install their superstition into school curricula more than the secularists want to keep it out. The Old Testament literalists are better funded, better organised and crucially, better motivated than their opponents. So eventually they win (and they don’t care who gets offended along the way). So much of life boils down to simple determination. All else being equal, the hard-working mediocrity will outstrip the talented loafer. Faced by Godist adversaries whose faith drives them on, we must be every bit as determined as they are.

Can politics remain secular? Only if we want it to.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Oct 02, 2005
drmiler: Not to be an ass, but (ok, I'm going to be an ass, but not for the express purpose of being an ass, haha)...

Answer: Free Masonry, Eastern Star, and other similar "secret" organizations appear to be harmless fellowship gatherings. Many of them even promote belief in God and good character. However, beneath this outward appearance, these secret societies hide anti-Biblical and anti-Christian beliefs and practices. The following is a comparison of what the Bible says with the "official" position of Free Masonry.


What you quoted about the Masons undermines your point. I don't really have any stake in this debate so it doesn't matter to me one way or another, but you might consider quoting a different source to back your point up.
on Oct 03, 2005
Here is some quotes from our founding fathers:

Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”

From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”

From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”

From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it — not to terrify but to extirpate.”

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”


Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”:
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

Jefferson’s Notes on Virginia:
“Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?”

Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”

“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”

“Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.”

“...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry.”


James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Additional quote from James Madison:
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”


Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.”

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”


Ethan Allen

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”
John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

Additional quotes from John Adams:
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?”

“The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”

“...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”

These quotes was resurched by the Ayn Rand Institute.
on Oct 03, 2005
From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”


Of all the quotes, this one is the most interesting. It shows how some at the Constitutional Congress wished to insert the Christian religion into the Constitution (i.e. establishing a state religion), but was voted down by the majority in protection of other religions and infidels (non-religion).
on Oct 03, 2005
Also from Thomas Jefferson


Thomas Jefferson, moral relativist:
Nature has constituted utility to man the standard and test of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced (Letter to Thomas Law, 1814).
As the circumstances and opinions of different societies vary, so the acts which may do them right or wrong must vary also, for virtue does not consist in the act we do but in the end it is to effect. If it is to effect the happiness of him to whom it is directed, it is virtuous; while in a society under different circumstances and opinions the same act might produce pain and would be vicious. The essence of virtue is in doing good to others, while what is good may be one thing in one society and its contrary in another (Letter to John Adams, 1816).
Reading, reflection and time have convinced me that the interests of society require the observation of those moral precepts only in which all religions agree (for all forbid us to steal, murder, plunder, or bear false witness), and that we should not intermeddle with the particular dogmas in which all religions differ, and which are totally unconnected with morality (Letter to J. Fishback, 1809).


Other noteworthy statements from Jefferson:


Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State (Letter to the Danbury Baptists, 1802).
Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle (letter to Robert Rush, 1813).
I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority (letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808).
I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies that the general government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them, an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises and the objects proper for them according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands where the Constitution has deposited it... Every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents (letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808).
No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose (Letters to the Methodist Episcopal Church at New London, Connecticut, Feb. 4, 1809).
To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own (Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779).
In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the constitution independent of the power of the federal government. I have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them, as the constitution found them, under the direction of state or church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies (Jefferson's Second Inaugural Address).
In justice, too, to our excellent Constitution, it ought to be observed, that it has not placed our religious rights under the power of any public functionary. The power, therefore, was wanting, not less than the will, to injure these rights (Letter to the Society of the Methodist Episcopal Church at Pittsburg, Dec. 9, 1808).
On the benefits of religious liberty:
...(O)ur rulers can have no authority over such natural rights, only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. In neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg (Notes on Virginia, 1785.
Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation. They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only (Notes on Virginia, 1785.
...(T)o compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness (Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 1789).
...(P)roscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right; that it tends also to corrupt the principles of that very religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it (Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 1789).
We have solved by fair experiment the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries (Letter to the Virginia Baptists, 1808).
Among the most inestimable of our blessings is that...of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support (Reply to Baptist Address, 1807).
Skepticism toward religious authority:
The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).
The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion (Letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800).
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).
on Oct 03, 2005
Thanks for more quotes, Dr. Miller. Boy, could Jefferson write.

The following quotes did jump out for me:

Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle (letter to Robert Rush, 1813).


I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority (letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808).


I have always liked Jefferson for his States Rights beliefs. I could never understand how liberal Democrats love him so much, when he always advocated that more authority should rest not with the Federal Government, but with the community or States. Jefferson should be considered a classical liberal, not a modern liberal.
on Oct 03, 2005
again, i see little connection between the defence of secularism and the french decision on headscarves. secularism does not necessarily rule out anything on the basis of its religiosity. on everything else - as i'm sure you know - i agree 100%.

ps. send me an email when you get settled in the new life.
on Oct 03, 2005
Mason's are reknown sun worhippers. The sun at the top of the pyramid on the back of the dollar is a Mason symbol.
Its funny how so many missed it.

And Atheism is mutually exclusive with Christian or Deism.
However Agnostic is NOT mutually exclusive. The word a infront of gnostic is NOT Gnostic.

NO knowledge of God can be obtained or known. The Bible mentions this many many many times. It is funny how people only see what they want to see cause they think they know.

Agnotic means simply know way to know. No proof one way or the other.

Thomas Huxley's view on the word Agnostic was pretty stupid. It is a simple word, not really that hard. Ever heard of KISS? Keep it simple stupid.

Most Christians are also agnostics. They can't say there "IS" a way to know God. If they could, they could prove it. Since it is not provable, most are simply agnostic.

Atheism definition:
No belief in God or God(s). Simple, not too difficult.
Now an atheist may not have a belief in God, however an atheist can have a view of God, just like we can all view Santa Clause (in our minds).

Regards,
Fox


on Oct 04, 2005
Mason's are reknown sun worhippers. The sun at the top of the pyramid on the back of the dollar is a Mason symbol.
Its funny how so many missed it.

And Atheism is mutually exclusive with Christian or Deism.
However Agnostic is NOT mutually exclusive. The word a infront of gnostic is NOT Gnostic.

NO knowledge of God can be obtained or known. The Bible mentions this many many many times. It is funny how people only see what they want to see cause they think they know.

Agnotic means simply know way to know. No proof one way or the other.

Thomas Huxley's view on the word Agnostic was pretty stupid. It is a simple word, not really that hard. Ever heard of KISS? Keep it simple stupid.

Most Christians are also agnostics. They can't say there "IS" a way to know God. If they could, they could prove it. Since it is not provable, most are simply agnostic.

Atheism definition:
No belief in God or God(s). Simple, not too difficult.
Now an atheist may not have a belief in God, however an atheist can have a view of God, just like we can all view Santa Clause (in our minds).

Regards,
Fox


Sorry. Christians can NOT be an agnostic it they follow their faith. Please note the high-lighted area below.


Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god


And just an FYI.....freemasons are NOT sun worshippers. Although the sun is one of their religous "symbols", they do NOT worship it. As in a christian symbol is the cross, but in itself is not worshipped. Read and learn:Link
on Oct 11, 2005
Thank you all for your comments. I'm sorry I haven't been able to join in with the debate in my normal way. I have been a little busy of late, as I will explain later.

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