Published on February 17, 2005 By O G San In International
Thirty miles from where I sit typing this is the country of North Korea, which announced last week for the first time that it has nuclear weapons. When I first heard this news I paused for a moment of trepidation. And then, like everyone else in this region, I got on with life. After all, last week's announcement was not "news" as such, but merely confirmation of what, to use the Belfast parlance, "the dogs in the street know". Like it or not, we in north east Asia are learning to live with the fact that the regime in Pyongyang has nuclear weapons.

In a year or so it is quite possible that the people of the Middle East will have to learn to live with a nuclear-armed Iran. It seems more and more evident that Iran, if it does not actually possess nuclear weaponry yet, that it will soon have the capability to manufacture said weaponry quickly should it feel threatened.

All the sabre-rattling from the US on this issue can't disguise the fact that the world's only hyperpower has limited options when it comes to confronting Iran. America can't give Iran a taste of Iraq's medicine because the current patient has the doctor by the throat.

Just as America's ability to stop Iran getting nukes is limited, its case for doing so is flimsy. One question which the US, or Britain, or France, or Israel have never satisfactorily answered is this: If you can have nukes, why can't Iran? There is, it seems to me, a quite startling hypocrisy at the heart of each of these country's posture towards Iran. What is so terrible about Iran having the big one, as opposed to say, France?

Is it because the Iranian regime is belligerent? Well, let's do a little comparison. Since the 1979 revolution, Iran has only been involved in one conflict, with Iraq in the 1980s. Tehran went to war on that occasion on the far from unreasonable grounds that the world's largest Arab army had turned up at its door looking for a scrap. This is hardly the record of a prerennial warmonger.

Now let's take the record of one of the "established" nuclear powers, the UK. In the same period, Britain has gone to war five times, against Argentina, Iraq (twice), Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. On only one of these occasions, the first, was British territory actually attacked. Yet no-one seems to lose any sleep at the thought of Tony Blair's finger hovering over the red button.

Is it because Iran is a Muslim country? Perhaps, but why then is it OK for Pakistan to have nuclear weapons? The regimne of Pervez Musharraf is tight with the West. If the world can live with one nuclear-armed Islamic state, then why not two?

Is it because Iran has a poor human rights record? Possibly, but again look at one of the "established" members of the nuclear club, China, which leads the world in executions. And again, we've learnt to live with Beijing having nuclear weapons.

Is it because Iran could share its nuclear weaponry with international terrorists? Once again, this can't be ruled out, but it seems that other nuclear powers present a far more pressing danger in this respect. First we have Pakistan, where A Q Khan was for some years running a sort of Nukes'R'Us business.

Then there is Russia, with its huge arsenal and its withered government infrastructure. Finally, we have North Korea which might just sell one of its bombs for a bowl of rice sometime in the future. These three scenarios seem a whole lot more plausible than the idea of Iran, implacable foe of al-Qaida, giving nukes to terrorists.

Now imagine just for a moment that you are Iran. Take a look at your neighbourhood: Three countries over is your implacable enemy Israel - which has nuclear weapons. Next door to you is Pakistan - which has nuclear weapons. To your north is India - which has nuclear weapons, then China - which has nuclear weapons, and finally Russia which, wait for it - has nuclear weapons. To top it all off the US - which has nuclear weapons - has moved in next door to you on both sides. Considering all this, is it any surprise that the ayatollahs feel like Tim Roth at the end of Reservoir Dogs?

In the short-term, Iran having nuclear weaponry might actually serve to improve global security by bringing a balance of terror to the Middle East. At present, only one country in the region, Israel, has the ability to wipe other states off the map. This may be good news for Israel, but it's not good news for those, such as Iran, who may be in line for a wipe off.

Once Iran gets the big one though, the old Cold War "logic" of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) comes into effect. Iran can wipe out Israel but Iran won't because Israel can wipe out Iran. Israel can wipe out Iran but Israel won't because Iran can wipe out Israel. And they'll all live happily ever after!

Or at least in the short to medium term they will. MAD has a certain demented logic to it, but in the long-term, possessing nuclear weaponry is all demention, no logic. I rue the day that a species as singularly destructive as ours acquired the power to end all life on this planet. As an incurable pessimist, I can't help thinking that one day we'll utilise this capability. If the ice-caps don't get us, the mushroom clouds will.

But in the meantime, I fail to see how having ten nuclear states, rather than nine, should create such a great crisis.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 18, 2005
Also, I personally feel that iran or N.korea, shouldn't have nukes, well most nations actually...if you think about it, out in the public these "friendly" countries say that the nuclear programs are for peace, and that the nukes are for _____ [input whatever] But in private they can build these weapons,

also, the weapons inspectors wouldn't find anything , these alleged "weapon producing" countries could just as easily [if they have made them] move them, or hide them underground in Cilos [forgive my spelling]

Just some thoughts.......[oh, and let the bashing begin....]
on Feb 18, 2005
BRILLIANT PIECE ... BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some points I wish to make:
>l the sabre-rattling from the US on this issue can't disguise the fact that the world's only hyperpower has limited options
>when it comes to confronting Iran. America can't give Iran a taste of Iraq's medicine because the current patient has the
>doctor by the throat.

Amen, something the pro-war "turn them into glass" side has yet to understand. Look at the affect of the "explosion" this
week in Iran a few miles from the Bushre reactor ... and the affect on the world market (stocks and oil).

Some are now suggesting Iran did it on purpose JUST to show that messing with it has costs NOT only in soldiers lives but
other economies.

>Once Iran gets the big one though, the old Cold War "logic" of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) comes into effect. Iran
>can wipe out Israel but Iran won't because Israel can wipe out Iran. Israel can wipe out Iran but Israel won't because Iran
>can wipe out Israel. And they'll all live happily ever after!

Once more "logic" being applied.
Something the "nuke them off the face of the Earth" crowd cannot fathom.

Its a shame all the other Middle East countries STILL fail to get the message ... your way of life will always be threatened
until you acquire the means to return "the favor".
on Feb 18, 2005
>These are very good arguements. But lets take it a bit further shall we? Is the US or the UK likely to use those nukes?
>I don't think so. Will N Korea?

Says who?
Every four years bring a new regime into power ... with their own "interests"

>For all our *war-mongering* when have we ever used or threatened to use a nuke besides Japan in WW2?

How about the development of "bunker busters"???
The "Depleted Uranium Shells" used to decimate Fallujah is pretty close ... Did you read news reports claiming witnesses
seeing U.S soldiers scrubbing the place with water tanks?

What were they trying to "clean up"?

>But will those hotheads over there see it *before* some idiot pushes the button?

Listen, they are getting it for THEIR defence. If you dont attack them they dont use it.
So, DONT THREATEN THEM AND YOULL BE FINE!!!

>With us it takes more than just the presidents say so to use nukes.

How about the guy walking around with the brief case with the "launch codes" ... if theres any truth to that then it only
takes HIM to stop a madman

MAD .. its all thats keeping us alive. I vote for more countries joining the Nuclear Club.
on Feb 18, 2005
>It's not like the world is a better place with more nuclear weapons. There shouldn't be any.

Good "charity begins at HOME". Start by ridding the world of YOUR stockpiles.
FIRST.

>To say that because your neighbor has a closet full of WMDs gives you the moral right to have them falls flat.

???
The first concern of every living thing is "SELF PRESERVATION". Muslim, Christian or Jewish ... its all the same.

>To say that because the police sometimes abuse their authority that you should also have the trappings of that authority,
>the weaponry to impose your OWN abuse, falls flat.

Its a system of checks and balances. Governments with a dis-armed populous tend to ABUSE authority. History has shown
that. Ask the NRA members why they have guns ... its not always for hunting.

Finally, who made you the WORLD POLICE. I dont remember a vote being taken? So if you can have it, ALL OTHERS should
as well.
on Feb 18, 2005
there is a very great difference between a nation having nuclear weapons and the Islamic militants possessing these devices. For the most part, a country especially a dictatorship will not risk using these weapons on a major power for fear of losing what is most important -- their power base. The greatest danger in any of the Moslem countries obtaining nuclear weapons is if they choose to give them to the Islamic terrorist organizations which do not have a country to lose if they use them.

This was the subject of a paper written by Professor Record at the Army War College. He pointed out, that the tactics we must use with a terrorist organization such as Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah is very different from the tactics we would use with a country such as Iraq, Iran, Syria or North Korea. So the real danger to the United States by allowing other Moslem countries to obtain these weapons is there possible distribution to Islamic terrorists who are not inhibited to use these weapons against the United States or other Western nations.
on Feb 18, 2005
>Bank on it. Israel will not allow Iran to have nuclear weapons.

Its not Israels decision to make. Iran is not Iraq.
1) their program is cleverly hidden and placed in "strategic locations"
2) there are a lot of mountainous region on their land (plenty of places to hide Surface to Air missiles) and
the distance between them and Israel is greater
3) any attack on them will SEAL the DEAL and gurantee the following
a) the Ayatollahs grip on power
the FULL SUPPORT of their youth in sacrifising (anything) to acquire said weapons

Look, even the SHAH wanted them ... WHAT GOVERNMENT IN IRAN HAS NOT WANTED A NUCLEAR PROGRAM (peaceful
or otherwise)???

>The conflict is enevitable, and we will support Israel.

Good, then be prepared for the fallout. They arent
1) hobbled by 12 years of sanctions
2) divided ethnically
3) have the means to affect the global economy
4) and have quite a few "allies" with vested deals and interests (Russia, India and China)
5) and most importantly they now have a supportive government in Iraq and a proxy army
in Lebanon

GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!
The next war you start will add 5 more to the list of Nuclear Nations.
on Feb 18, 2005
By the way what MESSAGE does leaving the CTB Threaty and starting research on "NUK LEAR" bunker busters give?

on Feb 18, 2005
rombios: go back to your ward, please, noone is listening.

OG San: I've said before that I would feel safer with Iran holding a few nukes rather than N. Korea, who I, too, feel is more likely to use them in anger.
What I would worry about, though, would be Iran's tendency to support terrorism; I think it more than likely that they just might slip a bomb or two to some whacko group with the right amount of cash, or even on credit, if they promised to use it against Isreal (or even the US). After all....though Iran probably (or maybe) wouldn't use nukes on Isreal themselves for fear of retaliation,, if an independent terror group did it, who would Isreal have to fire on? Unless, of course, they eventually found that Iran had given the weapon(s) out for use.

You all keep implying (some of you on two threads now that I've been following) that the US somehow uses its nuclear arsenal and the fact that we are the only ones to have actually used a nuke in war to hold the rest of the world in thrall.
When was the last time we actually used our nukes to pressure anyone into seeing things our way? The 1980s, with Reagan's buildup in Europe that eventually brought down the Soviets?
Until recent years, with N. Korea and now Iran actively seeking a nuclear option to their war chests, our nuclear weapons were incidental carryovers from the Cold War. Now, however, by going out and looking to build a nuke arsenal for themselves, these two rogue states are bringing them to the forefront once more.
Don't blame us; we've had them for decades, yes, but we haven't used them in 60 years, and don't want to.
The closest we actually came to using them was in October of 1962, with the Cuban Missle Crisis, and it was averted by Kennedy when his firm stand on the issue made the Soviets back down. That was 43 years ago.
In fact, we've all but ignored them since the early 90s, despite..DESPITE...recent conflicts in which they could easily have been used to wipe our enemies off the face of the Earth.
The activities of Iran and N. Korea are making us dust off and oil up our ICBMs once more, though, warily watching the emerging threat. Don't blame us. Blame them.
on Feb 18, 2005
Rightwinger ... ill go back to my ward, if you take you PILLS!

>you all keep implying (some of you on two threads now that I've been following) that the US somehow uses its nuclear
>arsenal and the fact that we are the only ones to have actually used a nuke in war to hold the rest of the world in thrall.

I am not implying, I am stating that as FACT!!!

>When was the last time we actually used our nukes to pressure anyone into seeing things our way?

What time is it?
on Feb 18, 2005
>In fact, we've all but ignored them since the early 90s, despite..DESPITE...recent conflicts in which they could easily have
>been used to wipe our enemies off the face of the Earth.

You would have used them but CANNOT.
Because you are no longer the only ones with such weapons ... the affect of repeating the mistakes with Hiroshima and
Nagaszki could have dire consequences NOW.

Lets say a criminal contemplates robbing a convenient store (of its oil )
Would said criminal be more or less likely to do this if
1) the store owner or cashier has a gun
2) SOMEONE else in the store has a gone and might come to the cashier's aid?

a gun is a gun ... in the end both do the same, whether you have a glock or a bushmaster.

>The activities of Iran and N. Korea are making us dust off and oil up our ICBMs once more, though, warily watching the
>emerging threat. Don't blame us. Blame them.

Leave them alone and you have nothing to worry about!!!
They need this to protect themselves from your POLICIES of pre-emptive attack and regime change

LEAVE THEM ALONE AND YOU NEEDED WORRY ABOUT YOUR SAFTEY
on Feb 18, 2005
>These are very good arguements. But lets take it a bit further shall we? Is the US or the UK likely to use those nukes?
>I don't think so. Will N Korea?

Says who?
Every four years bring a new regime into power ... with their own "interests"

>For all our *war-mongering* when have we ever used or threatened to use a nuke besides Japan in WW2?

How about the development of "bunker busters"???
The "Depleted Uranium Shells" used to decimate Fallujah is pretty close ... Did you read news reports claiming witnesses
seeing U.S soldiers scrubbing the place with water tanks?

What were they trying to "clean up"?

>But will those hotheads over there see it *before* some idiot pushes the button?

Listen, they are getting it for THEIR defence. If you dont attack them they dont use it.
So, DONT THREATEN THEM AND YOULL BE FINE!!!

>With us it takes more than just the presidents say so to use nukes.

How about the guy walking around with the brief case with the "launch codes" ... if theres any truth to that then it only
takes HIM to stop a madman

MAD .. its all thats keeping us alive. I vote for more countries joining the Nuclear Club.


This post shows your ignorance. We will NOT use because we're not willing to pay the consquences. Maybe *you* are? Making Bunker Busters are NOT threatening to use OR useing nukes!
There were NO depleted Uranium shells used in Falluja. Before you start babbling on armament KNOW what your talking about. Depleted Uranium is used for one thing and one thing only and that's armor piercing cannon rounds, PERIOD! And lastly your comment about the man carring the codes. Again shows what you DON'T know. No such animal. The codes are kept in safes. And just because someone has a launch code does NOT mean that they can get to the launch controls! Now go back to your playpen and grow up.
on Feb 18, 2005
You know something, rombios....from this post on I'm ignoring you.
Say what you will...you're an America-hater deep in your soul, and anything you say and do on here will reflect that. Anything I say or do will not change that, either, so I will not bother acknowledging your presence from here on out.
You are a psycho who is woefully biased and terribly uniformed, yet you continue to wage your battle of wits even though you personally hold no weapons.
Everyone here knows this. Leave.

Go on over to the Nickelodeon website and debate cartoon characters with the 6-year-olds. Maybe there you could win. Goodbye.
on Feb 18, 2005
>And just because someone has a launch code does NOT mean that they can get to the launch controls!

You say tomato, I say toMAto ... whats your point?
If you have an administration filled with LOYAL SYCHOPHANTS, then who will stop you from taking the Nuke option???

>Now go back to your playpen and grow up.

Seems I have touched a nerve!
Methinks these exchanges are so much easier for YOU "drmiller" to deal with, when NO ONE is challenging you
on Feb 18, 2005
If you have an administration filled with LOYAL SYCHOPHANTS, then who will stop you from taking the Nuke option???


Okay, one last time....after this I'm ignoring you. I had to respond to this one, because you are so myopic that you can't see that you're actually killing your own position. You're good at that.

Which government holds more synchophants? A democracy like America, where the president has to answer to the electorate, Congress and the Senate, or a dictatorship like North Korea and Iran and all the power is in the hands of one or two people? Now goodbye.
on Feb 18, 2005
>Reply By: Rightwinger Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005
>You know something, rombios....from this post on I'm ignoring you.

HA, you said that in another thread on a similar subject. You arent going anywhere!!!
your reply to this is PROOF POSITIVE

>Say what you will...you're an America-hater deep in your soul, and anything you say and do on here will reflect that.

Say what YOU will, you are an American Lover .. in your eyes America can do no wrong even when there is tons of evidence
to the contrary. You are a sheep and the sort of person that this administration loves. You ask nothing, question nothing.

In your eyes:
Everyone outside your border is a terrorist
Everyone who does not agree with your policies hates you
Everyone who refuses to yield to your whim has got to be taught a lesson

How can you continue to live in a world like we live in without amassing enemies?
No one wakes up and JUST hates America ... why dont you ask why others are viewing your government as they do?
OPEN YOUR EYES.

Look at the recent appointment of Negroponte ... as the Hondurans what he did to them during Reagans years in office.
And you wonder why you are hated

>Everyone here knows this. Leave.

Will you launch a pre-emptive strike if I remain. Or will you employ "death squads"?

>Goodbye.
Youll be back ... I know you better than you know yourself. This will not be the last you respond to this thread.
Heres your chance to prove me wrong
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